Monday, November 12, 2012

Apologetics to Homosexuals (Does it work?)

Tim Schenks (Member of Zion Lutheran Church) – Original Post on Facebook I must echo and embellish a comment by Illinois LCMS Pastor David Juhl, that is, you really shouldn't add your pastors or elders on Facebook when you're going to be posting images or opinions that are most likely going to clash with what your congregation believes, teaches and confesses. I'm talking basic Ten Commandments here.

When you post about your drunken raves, strip club activity, homosexuality, pro-abortion stance and shacking up, yet you or your family members tell the church officers that you want to remain a member, you're going to be asked to explain yourself and why you still want to remain a member of that church.
February 3 at 2:48am

Heather Ganime, Laurie Reed and Tonya Michel like this. (Members of Zion Lutheran Church)

Gonzalez Shellie (Member of Zion Lutheran Church)
II Timothy 3:16 & 17 KJV 
February 3 at 7:05am

Rodney Wilson
Sounds like religious tyranny to me, suppression of free speech and free thought and free association -- but that's what so much religion is about. So glad I'm not in a strait-jacket that is denominational religion -- especially the arch-conservative variety such as LCMS.
February 3 at 7:06am

Gonzalez Shellie
I Timothy 5:14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
February 3 at 7:34am

David Juhl (LCMS Pastor)
Rodney: As a Christian, I am free. Full stop.
February 3 at 7:45am

Chris Fiske (Member of Zion Lutheran Church)
I agree Tim in so much as we should not do those things that are against the Christian beliefs. And you do, dont post them to facebook. Me as Youth leader try not to post anything or share someone else's post if it would like bad toward...s me. Because I am freinds with all the Youth. How would that like towards them if the would read something that would shed a bad light on my as a Christian. Does the rambling make sense?
February 3 at 7:47am

Tim Schenks
Rodney, Christianity isn't freedom of expression, it's repenting of your sins and receiving forgiveness and eternal life by the grace of God for the sake of Jesus Christ. Of course you're going to say that -- you are a homosexual. I pray that all homosexuals repent of their sins, but it is a kindness for me to say if you do not repent of that activity and cease then you will find yourself in hell after you die.
February 3 at 7:48am

Rodney Wilson
You remind me of Martin Luther now -- didn't he talk likewise about the Jews in those insane anti-semitic screeds of his. (Why anyone would call themselves Lutheran, I'll never know.) Come on, Tim, this is 2012, and there's no room for prejudice or hatred in the Body of Christ. But I won't condemn you to hellfire for your prejudice as you just did me. I know we're all just doing the best we can here below and that God's grace is sufficient for all of us and that God's strength is revealed in our weaknesses. Now, let's all let go of the hatred, for God is love and love is from God.See More
February 3 at 7:53am

David Juhl
God is love in His Son Jesus Christ, who died for sinners. Christ's death is for sinners. Christ's death is not merely to show God's love for everyone. Please read Holy Scripture. God's Word clearly teaches what I just wrote.
February 3 at 7:59am

Tim Schenks
I'm not condemning anyone, Rodney. If anyone is condemned it is through their own actions and choices, not by me crying wolf. Maybe you will convert in your old age, that's fine...but in the meantime there's going to be years of very poor witness and bad example that you as a teacher are going to be imparting to the youth.
February 3 at 8:00am

Rodney Wilson
David, I've read the Bible cover to cover at least seven times and I've studied it for thousands of hours. I bet I could beat you and Tim in a Bible trivia contest. ha, ha (Just lightening the conversation a bit.) Tim, your religion bores me. Jesus excites me. End of story.
February 3 at 8:03am

Tim Schenks
My religion tells me that it's not about you. It's about what Jesus did for you. That's exciting.
February 3 at 8:06am

Rodney Wilson
I'm all for Jesus -- but I'm not for Lutheranism or the laws of the LCMS, handed down like holy writ, with those who disobey cast aside. That's what Luther did to the Jews and others. I don't like it.
February 3 at 8:13am

Tim Schenks
I'll agree. That is most certainly true. The laws of the LCMS were handed down like holy writ, because the Bible is exactly what they use.
February 3 at 8:14am

Rodney Wilson
And that's what they all say, friend. Everyone wants to believe that their little denomination is *the one.* I say that Jesus is the one, not any human contrivance called denomination.
February 3 at 8:15am

Gonzalez Shellie
I would hope that if my youth was ever posting something that is questionable that my youth would have it brought to his/her attention and remove it because as a mom, if it were in opposition to the church then it would not be profitable for either the church or us. Profitable in my understanding does not always mean monetary gain.
February 3 at 8:16am

Gonzalez Shellie
It's also true that this is a free country but the opposition should never be towards one who is doing good because it would be rewarding the bad and then it would never leave your house. Now if I'm guilty of adding or deleting from His words so help me in the Name of Jesus. Forgive me in Jesus name. Love does cover all sins. :) Peace Out. :)
February 3 at 8:18am

Tim Schenks
Rodney, you make it sound like people are cast aside for nothing. That's not how it works. Anything can be forgiven, and there are plenty of passages in Holy Scripture about that including how to address it, but not manifest, unrepent, persistent sinful behavior.
February 3 at 8:20am

Rodney Wilson
One man's sin is another man's virtue. No one has a stranglehold on truth. Those who claim they do, are deceived.
February 3 at 11:09am

David Juhl
I am sorry you do not recognize objective truth. I cannot have this discussion with you if you are not willing to recognize objective truth.
February 3 at 11:10am

Rodney Wilson
If by objective truth, you mean Jesus, we are in agreement. If by objective truth you mean the doctrines of Martin Luther or the Lutheran Church or any other denomination, then indeed we will not be able to agree. I'm with Jesus on opposing the power of religion and the power of the religious elite.
February 3 at 11:49am

Gonzalez Shellie
It would be my preference to have a subjective walk with Jesus and take him personally rather than to look at my religious perspective objectively as to examine the outwardness of my internal being. Rather it's the inward man that counts.
February 3 at 1:14pm

Chris Rosebrough (Lutheran Layman; Apologist)
Rodney - and yet you're acting exactly like a member of the religious elite. You're casting aside anyone who disagrees with your doctrinal views regarding doctrine. Odd tactic dontcha think?
February 4 at 2:47pm

Rodney Wilson
I disagree, Chris. I'm saying allow all to be free -- don't enslave others with one's religious yokes. Jesus said it best: "my burden is easy, my yoke is light." Too bad few believe him.
February 4 at 3:27pm

Chris Rosebrough 
Rodney - define the term "religious yoke".
February 4 at 3:37pm

Rodney Wilson
The rules of the LCMS, for example.
February 4 at 5:16pm

Scott Diekmann (Lutheran Layman; Apologist)
Rodney, did you see Jefferson Bethke's You Tube video "Why I Hate Religion but Love Jesus?": http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1IAhDGYlpqY
February 4 at 8:03pm

Rodney Wilson
Yes, Scott, I did see that. The young man has some good ideas. I hope that the next generation of Christians -- his generation -- is not so uptight.
February 4 at 10:39pm

Scott Diekmann
Did you see this similar one?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=TbsadOQK_6A#!
February 4 at 10:49pm

Rodney Wilson
Some good points there, too. Bottom line -- all this debate is beside the point. Can't we all agree that we need to cultivate the fruits of the spirit; that love is the greatest of these; that love of God, self, and neighbor are supreme; that the Sermon on the Mount, followed, could tranform the world. We all can do so much better!
February 4 at 11:01pm

Tim Schenks
I think most will agree about the fruits of the Spirit, but also about the fruits of the flesh in that same chapter of Galatians.
February 5 at 12:38am

Tim Schenks
--cultivate fruits of the Spirit; avoid fruits of the flesh.
February 5 at 12:41am

Scott Diekmann
We do need to cultivate the fruits of the Spirit Rodney, and love is very important. Yet we will fail in the transformation of the world. The Gospel is not about us transforming the world, it's about Christ transforming people – killing th...em and making them alive by His Word. Law and Gospel. Without first considering that, all we're talking about is a social Gospel. Since we're sinner and saint at the same time we always need to keep both the Law that convicts us of our sin, and the Gospel which frees us to serve our neighbor in love, in view. Consider the following words St. Paul writes to Timothy. They illustrate a proper balance of Law and Gospel. Note here that Paul specifically points out that sound doctrine is important, and directly related to the Gospel. These aren't the words of some denomination or another, they're straight from Scripture: "The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion, desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions. Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been
entrusted" 1 Timothy 1:5-11 ESV.
February 5 at 1:00am

Rodney Wilson
Here's a difference, Tim -- I believe that if we cultivate the fruits of the spirit and the lifestyle of I Cor 13 love, the works of the flesh are murdered. That's how we fulfill the law of love, the law of Christ -- not by trying to follow... the stone cold Law of Moses or the stone cold Law of the LCMS or any other denomination. By walking in the Spirit, as Paul wrote, we put to death the deeds of the flesh. Grace. Grace. Grace. And more grace! That's good news. "Follow these rules of my church and believe what we all believe and think how we all think and vote how we all vote is not Good News -- it's bondage, fleshly slavery."See More
February 5 at 6:20am

Tim Schenks
The problem is that you're cultivating the fruits of the flesh and saying it's the Spirit. That is not Christian. That's re-writing the Bible.
Tuesday at 4:31pm

Rodney Wilson
That's putting yourself in the judgement seat of Christ, something Christians are famous for. :-(
Tuesday at 4:46pm

Tim Schenks
I must not know the same people you do, Rodney. I don't know any Christians who put themselves in the judgement seat of Christ.
Tuesday at 5:46pm

Rodney Wilson
I, a Christian, shall now put myself in the judgement seat of Christ by saying that it seems to me that you did that when you looked into my heart and soul, godlike in your discernment, and pronounced judgement: "You're cultivating the fruits of the flesh and saying it's the Spirit."
Tuesday at 6:08pm

Scott Diekmann
Rodney, I think it would be better to recast the direction of the discussion somewhat. St. Paul says in Romans 6 "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. Do not present your members to sin as instrume...nts for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace." From this it can be deduced that sin exists, and that it has been defined by God's Commandments. We can't get away from the reality of sin, since we all sin daily, and without Christ, we would die eternally, because the wages of sin is death. Thanks be to God that He sent His Son to die in our place. The above verse also tells us not to let sin have dominion over us, and the flip side, if we do let sin have dominion over us, we are no longer in a state of grace, and have instead allowed Satan to rule in us. While it sometimes seems like Christians are being judgmental (and maybe some of them are just being hypocrites, or it certainly seems that way at times), Scripture tells us to help fellow Christians who have fallen into willful sin. This can be seen in Matthew 18. If I as a Christian see someone sinning, I should care about them enough to kindly point it out to them, showing them their sin, that the Law may do it's work of killing the old Adam, and the Gospel can then raise them up. If I don't do this, I myself would be sinning against my brother by not helping him. Matthew 18:18 tells the Church to bind and loose - to forgive the sins of those who repent and to hold the sins of those who refuse to repent against them. This is JESUS HIMSELF TALKING. We still need to hear the Law, all of us, including you too. If we ignore the Law, we become complacent, think that sin can't hurt us, and eventually fall away from the truth and lose our salvation. I hope you will consider these things seriously. I am not judging you, since I don't even know what started this whole conversation. I can only tell from some of what you've said up above that you'd benefit from what I've said. Yours in Christ, Scott
Tuesday at 10:19pm

Tim Schenks
The conversation started as a post to members of my own congregation. I'm not sure why Rodney replied to it.
1:31am

Rodney Wilson
Tim, if you had written "For LCMS Members Only," I would have ignored it. (I usually ignore your, in my view, cult like devotion to the LCMS). Instead, you threw it out to everyone on your FB list and judged homosexuals. Your post sounded l...ike just one more religious Pharisee judging the outcasts, when all the while Jesus is having dinner with them. Ah, history doth repeat itself. Once again, the religious elite abandon Jesus and the sinners and prostitutes enter the Kingdom.See More
6:13am

Rodney Wilson
Scott, thank you, brother. I love those words of St. Paul. I love most of the words of St. Paul. Not the ones that tolerate slavery. Or the ones that subject women to inferior / weaker status. Or the ones against gays. But most of Paul's stuff is excellent and inspiring!
Yesterday at 6:14am

Tim Schenks
Rodney, when I mentioned pastors and elders and church officers and members of a congregation, how could you NOT know that I was talking about my own church?
7:23am

Tim Schenks
http://issuesetc.org/2009/03/07/playing-the-pharisee-card/ would be a good site to check out about now.
Sample Article: "Playing the Pharisee Card" - Issues, Etc.
7:35am

Rodney Wilson
I know nothing about your little denomination, to be honest, so I had no idea you were referring only to your clan. On the Pharisee issue, I always try to side with the sinners, the whores, the alcoholics, the despised and marginalized ones -- like my example Jesus did.

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I then showed this "conversation" to Pr. Borghardt from Higher Things, who suggested I ignore Rodney's posts in the future.